Data-Driven Leadership: The Secret to Retaining Top Educators

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If you're trying to solve the crisis in educator turnover, you set your sights on your building leadership and getting them stabilized so that you have better teacher retention outcomes? That's a question that we're going to tackle today in our series on K 12 leadership best practices .

Today we have Steve Salerno, Superintendent of the Mount Horeb Area School District. What's Steve's story? If you can condense all of his experience into one phrase, it would be setting up people for success. Steve's got a 30 year track record as a public school teacher, principal and superintendent .

e says that this begins with [: 00:01:00

Steve, welcome to the show.

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[00:01:22] Dr. Jim: Steve Pumped to have you on the show and I'm looking forward to your perspective and especially the lens that you bring to this story where you're focusing in on building level leadership, your line managers and getting them effective so that you have better teacher retention outcomes or better employee retention outcomes.

ship philosophy and how that [: 00:02:00

[00:02:03] Steve Salerno: Thank you for having me. And I think it's like any other experience that you have in life. You have people who tap you on the shoulder and say, Hey, you'd be a really great and then insert the job. And people who believed in me have, has allowed me just to find my way through. through a number of opportunities in educational leadership over the years, quite frankly, positions that I didn't think that I was even ready for, but others saw that in me.

And so now as I'm coming to the twilight of my career, 32 plus years in, I think it's my job now to pay it forward and do the same thing for others is to provide them opportunities. Give them the training, give them the support, give them the idea that maybe they wish to be, consider being an assistant principal or a principal.

never wanted to be associate [: 00:03:00

And it's to the point where now I'm so grateful for those people who've touched my lives in such immeasurable ways I've been teaching in Florida and served an assistant principal and principal in Florida, wanted to continue my education and got my master's degrees, and then went on to get my EdD here in Madison, Wisconsin.

And I'm feeling very touched that people have sought something in me that maybe I didn't even see in myself that now I can hopefully help people experience that same joy.

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So when you think about that, there's a certain amount of chance and luck that has to [00:04:00] exist for that sort of tapping on the shoulder to happen. And when we're looking at providing pathways and opportunities across our organizations for people to continue to grow and develop, how have you made that growth and development opportunity more intentional across your organization?

So it doesn't rely on that single point of failure,

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And then, what are some areas that we can fine tune and make even stronger? So I think a lot of it has to do with being very purposeful, ongoing conversations. It's not a one and done. It's a conversation in which you not only bring the idea to the person, but then you talk to them about what's the pathway one might take [00:05:00] in order to achieve the desired goal.

And then you. Build capacity in them. You work that plan until you there where they want to be and where you hope that they might aspire to.

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So my question is when you're looking at. Leveraging strengths finders or any other leadership development tool. Why did you start looking at those particular instruments versus an educational skill development focus tool when you're looking at how you wanted to shape your district?

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Gallup tells us that people. Look to their leaders for four key things, hope, compassion, stability, and trust. And if I can find people who have that cache, have that capacity for hope, building hope, having stability, continuity in their work. They're trustworthy. And if you can build those within, if those people already have that inherent to them, I can build the rest around them.

from those general themes in [: 00:07:00

It's really purposeful.

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And what you've noticed is that when you've deviated from. Expectations are deviated from the instrument or some of the guidance that the instrument gives, it's led you to some negative outcomes. So the reason why that's interesting to me is that I have a neutral, negative opinion on some of these instruments when they're used as a pre employment tool, because oftentimes what you see, and this is my experience in the private sector is that you have hiring managers and hiring leaders using these as.

the trap of using this tool [: 00:08:00

Instrument in your hiring process versus a prescriptive instrument.

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And it's really important to go back even before you start to interview for candidates is to start to say to yourself, self, if I had the perfect candidate for this position, what would this person look like? And you list out those things because every time you have a new position, likely you're looking for something different and encircling yourself with people who can help you discern what are those top attributes.

be some kind of performance [: 00:09:00

I always want to know, what can I do to help someone be better at their job? That's a question I ask them when I interview them, because that sets the table for me to know what I can and cannot do, what's within my toolbox to help bring out the very best in them, but also challenges me, especially if the candidate is especially green and doesn't have a lot of experience.

I love those kinds of candidates because this is the opportunity I have to pay forward what was done for me. So every position is unique, every position is different, but I use it as one indicator of success, not the entire indicator of success. I think people who do that, Mistake the value of the tool.

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And I, having. Research background as well. I was like, that's not how you're supposed to do this. And it creates a pretty big risk too. If if you're using it as a predictive tool instead of a prescriptive tool, so really great stuff. So digging in a little bit deeper in this area.

Now, when I opened the conversation, I mentioned that, people join organizations and leave their managers. The argument that we're making in this conversation, at least in your experience, is that you put an emphasis on getting your principals and your assistant principals really effective when you join the district.

So paint us a picture of why you focused in on that area first as part of your broader talent strategy, both from a retention perspective and a development perspective.

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The greatest gift we can give our employees is professional development. And so I know the centerpiece to that success is really on our building principles, doing what we can to help them. Much of what a superintendent, I believe, does is, to use a football reference, is we run interference. for our employees.

We do whatever we can to take the obstacles out of the way, give them the tools, the equipment they need so that they can be successful in helping students experience success, families experience success. So I know our principals are key players in making certain that happens. Moreover, I must be honest with you.

leaders. Let me repeat that [: 00:12:00

And to our staff members who had done everything they could to help with that leadership void, they were getting tired doing two people's jobs, teaching as well as then trying to self administer, self regulate in the absence of continuity of leadership. And so I wanted to make certain that we found some individuals who understood the mission and we could set them up for success with that mission.

And I'm pleased to say. We have had continuity of leadership at our high school since then. And as a result, our high school has really reset itself both in terms of what it what the role is for each individual within the organization, but then I think greater satisfaction. amongst both personal and professional satisfaction for our key players in our buildings.

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You that allowed you to turn the tide.

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loving people. Our teachers are amazing at what they do and they care. They're compassionate. And so when you saw that much changeover, [00:14:00] no doubt it had to make them feel like it's even more difficult to do their important work. And we had those kinds of conversations. In fact, that brought an outside expert at helping us rebuild a culture for learning.

And this was not done just by one person, me, it was done by every one of those staff members, not just teachers, not just administrators, but our paraprofessionals, school nutrition custodians. Administrative assistance. They're all part of the success in that conversation, and we set up some expectations for everyone within the organization.

Expectations that everyone could ascribe to everyone could aspire to, and then when we looked for talent. As change overcame, we were very candid with our candidates about what we were looking for even into our job posting so that there were no surprises. Heck, we want to find people who can take us to the next level.

nd so when we brought people [: 00:15:00

[00:15:06] Dr. Jim: So when you look at transforming culture the first step that you did was you wanted to assess where your culture was Tell us a little bit more about what that involved. You brought in an external consultant and that's one step in the process, but walk us through some of the key milestones or steps that you took to one, understand the culture.

And then once you had a view into what that culture looked like, what actions did you take to start turning around? What the current state was into the desired future state.

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And so we needed to reset expectations for who does what lane are we going to be in, but then also talk about a culture, an aspirational culture. What do we want to be? And once we were able to do that, then we were able to go work backwards and begin to think about, okay, if we want this, Then we must do these steps here.

And I think if you were to talk to many people who were around at that time they would suggest that they are in a better place than they were, eight, seven years ago. And the other. Part of this, quite frankly is that we also had some people who elected to retire from the organization as well.

hip that's coming in. Not to [: 00:17:00

And so how do we help then identify people who can help us get to a breakthrough levels?

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So when you're encountering friction at the line level, and you have a leadership gap that people are filling in from the individual contributor ranks that can [00:18:00] create a muddled experience. So having gone through that, what steps did you take going forward to get. Educators or even high potential educators better prepared to step into those next levels so that you're not dealing with the friction at the front lines and you're not dealing with sort of ineffective leadership because people haven't grown into those roles.

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And once we did bring them on board, we hired very slowly. And very slowly. We did our homework on everybody. I, that's just part of my belief is you hire slowly because you are looking at them [00:19:00] as a potential 30 year investment, at least in Mount Horeb. That's the way it is. When people come to us, they come here to stay.

And I find that many people are running to us as opposed to running from where they've been. And that, that helps. But once we get there, I think it's us then trying to find out what are their skillsets so that we can play to those skillsets, because that's what Gallup tells us is you play to people's strengths, you don't focus on their developmental needs.

But then you also build capacity in them as much as you can, whether it be about In this case, we've been spending a lot of time talking about teacher clarity. One of John Hattie's major focuses is building the most efficient, effective schools how to yield the greatest achievement in our students.

eves and working shoulder to [: 00:20:00

Heck, I'm not the smartest guy in the room. I know that for sure. I know enough though, that I can encircle myself with the brightest minds. Teachers, support staff, administrators. To help get us to a yes, to help us get to where we want to go as an organization.

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So When, and I'm not be making an assumption, but if the board at the time had seen this level of turnover, and it's a 20 year track record of that level of turnover at the leadership level at the building leadership level, what was your process to getting your board on board and also shifting their [00:21:00] perspective from, hey, this is how it's always been to, no, we really need to look at this because we're not going to get to where we want to get to if this doesn't get fixed.

What was the process there that you put into place to get them aligned?

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And having candid conversations with the board because at the end of the day, we knew our high school staff, for example they were not personally, they were not professionally feeling as though they were being satisfied. It was clear that there were some factions within the organization that left them wanting more.

res and good healthy. School [: 00:22:00

We are where we are because we've had this inconsistency in leadership. Over time, it doesn't make those who were remaining any less compassionate, any less desirous of wanting to get better. But maybe they just needed some help in getting that started. And our board aligned the resources and allowed us to have those conversations, allowed us to move us to a better place.

And then. Only extend a reason that when we went to our public and we talked to our public about an operational referendum, we shared important data points with them. You, we asked them, what's the most important thing we should be doing in our schools right now? And 75 percent of our public told us recruit and retain highly qualified staff members.

o the board's strategic plan [: 00:23:00

[00:23:18] Dr. Jim: Steve it's pretty interesting that you've referenced data in a couple of different points in your conversation about the board, but also some of the data that you were able to gather when you went to referendum. So there's a gap between. When you collect the data and present sort of a case to the board and when you get to the referendum, walk us through what that process looked like and what you, what additional things that you uncovered during that board conversation that informed how you actually set up the referendum to best serve what the future needs of the district were,

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And we know what's been happening here is of course, inflation kept on rising. And we needed to do better by our staff. I have paraprofessionals who care for our youngest children. special education paraprofessionals feeding them with g tubes and they were making less money per hour than somebody who was just working down the street at our local stop and sip.

m, which is a brave thing to [: 00:25:00

And so the fact that they put their nickel down and allowed for that to happen to even ask the question of our community meant then the board believes in our staff, our board believes in the vision for what we're trying to achieve. And so now let's. Let's dig in with both hands and try to sell this thing.

tell you that in November of: 2022

School communities that are much larger in size than us have a larger tax base than us. We're still able to run with them in terms of our comparable wages and benefits. I think my goal was to be in the middle of the pack. And we look at our most recent survey [00:26:00] results and it shows that actually we're probably in the top tier and top third of our comps in terms of wages, benefits, and OPEB post employment benefit opportunities.

So I think that also builds a sense of culture for our staff to realize, okay, it's not that we're just looking at the data and doing nothing about it. We're actually digging in and we're looking for ways to get to a yes.

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And if you're not at. Parity, in a worst case scenario with what's around you from a compensation and benefits perspective. You're never going to move the needle from a retention and turnover perspective because people are going to just you know be looking for where can they make their ends meet in another district doing the same role So I think that's an important Realization [00:27:00] there.

We've covered a lot of ground in this conversation, and I think one of the things that would be helpful is if there's a leader that is listening to this conversation that's facing persistent turnover in their organization, and they want to execute a similar transformation like what you did.

What's the framework that they need to be thinking about?

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Things will be said throughout the process that might lead you to believe that am I really the right person for this job? And you then become the 25th person that they're looking for in the [00:28:00] school district, right? In a 20 year period, somebody has to step up and Do what's good and right for kids.

And if you have a high sense of mission as most educational leaders do, then that work is going to be hopefully your legacy. That would be the key is don't doubt yourself. Don't feel like you have imposter syndrome at all. But then once you get past that, and you start digging in, you're going to Start looking to the data.

organization, what you have [: 00:29:00

Whereas if you have people who have, been engaged and have thoughtfully studied and have thoughtfully explored opportunities. This is about more than one person. It's about the fabric of the organization and success is sure to be met not only with your retention rates, success is surely going to be met by professional satisfaction rates.

But most importantly, it's going to be met by what we see in student achievement. And as Mount Horeb, we've seen all three tick up in a very positive way.

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[00:29:38] Steve Salerno: Sure. I'm always happy to hear from someone if they want to give me a buzz you can always reach me by email.

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And the reason why that stands out, especially when we're looking at solving for a persistent turnover issue, is that My argument would be that you can't have hope, compassion or trust without tackling stability first. And what was interesting about the story that we shared, or you shared, is that you tackled that stability aspect in a couple of different fronts.

On the one hand, when we were looking at establishing leadership stability, You use the data driven approach and you use the leadership development approach that relied on an instrument that lets you identify or let the entire district identify what are people good at, and then position everybody to play to their strengths.

tually dealing with? But the [: 00:31:00

If you're dealing with a persistent turnover issue, a lot of things can drive turnover. One of the best way, one of the most surefire ways that you can continue to have a revolving door in your organization is if from a comp and benefits perspective, you're not competitive. You can have the greatest mission.

have to look at what can we [: 00:32:00

And then what can we do across the organization to make ourselves competitive from a comp and benefits perspective. And those two things together can move the needle a really long way when you're looking at stabilizing your organization. So Steve really appreciate you hanging out with us and sharing that input.

For those of you who have been listening to this conversation, if you like the discussion, make sure you leave us a review on your favorite podcast player. If you haven't already done so, make sure you join our community and you can find that community at www. engagerocket. co slash HR impact.

And then tune in next time where we'll have another great leader sharing with us the game changing insights that help them build a high performance team.