From Isolation to Collaboration: Creating a Small District Feel in a Large School System

CheeTung Leong: How do we improve outcomes for our kids in school? By improving The way that adults do what we do. Today, we're going to explore this question on the Engaging Leadership Show, where we talk about how to grow leaders and drive impact for your people. I'm your host for today, CT, and I'm the co founder of Engage Rocket.

CheeTung Leong: Engage Rocket is a leadership, listening, and insights tool that helps district leaders improve teacher retention, engagement, and ultimately student achievement outcomes. And today, In our studio, it's a great privilege for me to be interviewing Christopher Hoffman. He's the superintendent of Elk Grove Unified School District, the fifth largest school district in California.

CheeTung Leong: It's a great privilege to have you today, Chris. Welcome to the show.

Chris Hoffman: Happy to be here.

s it special to you and how, [: 00:01:00

Chris Hoffman: Okay, so I'll put a little bit of context. So we are physically large. We're 320 square miles. We actually have three cities that are within the boundaries of the city of Elk Grove South Sacramento, the capital city, and then Rancho Cordova, and then we have the unincorporated Sacramento County in the middle.

Chris Hoffman: We have 63, 000 kids and they attend 68 schools currently. And something else that makes us a little bit different is that unlike Many districts in the state of California, we're a growing district. So we have 68 schools today, but we still have 60 more schools to build when all this growth happens.

Chris Hoffman: Long after I retire, butit is something that's in the plans and we actually physically know where those schools are going to go down the road. So that does make us a little bit different. We're also different from a, who our kids are, who our communities are. So we're a very diverse school district.

er group and maybe a smaller [: 00:02:00

Chris Hoffman: There's a lot of community pride and and investment across the district.

CheeTung Leong: That's incredible. I'd love to dive into that in just a moment. But for all of us listening here, what is driving that growth? At the scale that you're already at and you're still growing. Thank you. Particularly in California, where I think many districts are seeing declining enrollment.

CheeTung Leong: You guys are actually growing already from a really large base. What's driving that?

Chris Hoffman: [: 00:03:00

Chris Hoffman: It's a really good place to live. If you do any of the surveys in the area and you ask people why they came they will say it's because of the school district. So I think there's a, there's, two components to it. There's affordability and the ability to have a affordable lifestyle but I do think the quality of schools, they, feed off each other and it's a big part of why we continue to grow.

CheeTung Leong: So a bunch of the families from where we are just moving over to where you are.

yees from other districts as [: 00:04:00

CheeTung Leong: Then that makes a lot of sense. But one of the things I want to get into is you talked about having that small district, small community feel. It's not easy to do with 320 square miles of land like how do you even cover that amount of ground and just the people that you, you need to know and speak to and have that personal relationship with?

CheeTung Leong: It's not very scalable. If you don't mind me saying how do you do it?

Chris Hoffman: Yeah. So it's certainly not me. It's really the folks that are part of our team come from all over the District. And there's a commitment District wide. We think about things, we try not to be run by trustee areas, but we really, and our trustees really do a nice job of focusing on the entire district when we talk about initiatives and work but it really is taking the time to, get out to schools and know what's going on in our schools.

out to schools as much as I [: 00:05:00

Chris Hoffman: I don't know exactly how we've held onto it, but folks that come here from the outside they comment on it regularly that it, Does feel like a small district, even though we're certainly not

CheeTung Leong: So I've got a hypothesis around this where perhaps at your scale, it just makes sense that you've devolved a lot of autonomy and a lot of responsibility for, to individual principles, to different groups and they then own them. their engagement with their community. And therefore you get that small community feel.

CheeTung Leong: How much of that do you think is true?

deling of what we expect and [: 00:06:00

Chris Hoffman: And so we there's a push pull there that we're very cognizant of and making sure that we're aware that individual schools need to be themselves But we're not 68 individual schools without connection. And so the connection piece of us being Elk Grove Unified is a really important part of who we are as well.

e show as well, like Walmart [: 00:07:00

CheeTung Leong: And I think the way that they've empowered individual leaders across their organization, helped them to build those little teams that felt very close to that leader, but at the same time saw an identity in the larger organization. And I want to tie this back to what I think we were talking about, where we're investing in adults to improve outcomes for kids.

CheeTung Leong: That's a little bit counterintuitive in the education space. I think in the private sector, Investing in talent is a given because you want to attract the right talent and so on. But it's not always seen in the education sector and that line of sight between investing in the adults and having that impact kids is sometimes not easily drawn.

CheeTung Leong: And I think you have a unique perspective on this. Could you elaborate a little bit on it?

d. And so if it proves to be [: 00:08:00

Chris Hoffman: But the only way I know how to improve outcomes for kids is if we, the adults, get better at the work we do, I'm making a big assumption that the adults are bringing Their best selves to the table every single day using the skills and knowledge that they currently have and our kids are able to perform.

Chris Hoffman: To the level we're able to bring them. And so if we want kids, if we expect kids to reach higher levels, we, the adults have to get better at the work we do. We do spend a lot of time investing in the professional development. And the personal development of the adults and we do believe that has a direct impact on outcomes for kids.

ced point and echo that with [: 00:09:00

CheeTung Leong: And I think this is a nuance that's I've observed that sometimes missed where we over invest in what we hope will drive outcomes for the kids. We invest in the classroom, we invest in technologies and tools for the children, and then we forget about the adults that need to drive.

CheeTung Leong: Those kind of behaviors, they need to reinforce the type of learning that the kids go through. And if you see turnover on the adult side you then, you lose that level of stability for the kids. Where did this insight that you talk about come from in your own personal leadership journey?

years and really good models [: 00:10:00

Chris Hoffman: There are specific skill sets and things that you can bring to the table to get better in the classroom. I think the same is true for a site principal. The same is true for a superintendent. The same is true for a bus drivers who are often the first folks that interact with our kids on a daily basis and setting the tone.

Chris Hoffman: So I've had leadersand mentors and teammates along the road where the idea is we can get better as the adults, we can get better at the work we do. And for me personally. That's a good place to be. If I'm ever in a place where I know how to do this, and I'm not in a place of growth, that's not good for my spirit.

they're in a learning mode, [: 00:11:00

Chris Hoffman: Then what kind of model are we showing to our kids? And what model are we doing for our community as a whole?

CheeTung Leong: So I really like that. What do you describe if you're putting adults in a learning mode? You're always stretching them. To achieve and to grow as individuals, which is one of the, one of the biggest, criticism sometimes of careers in education where, teachers might say, I don't have room to learn and grow.

CheeTung Leong: I feel like my professional development is stunted and therefore they end up leaving the profession entirely. So I think Approaching that from a professional learning angle to keep stretching each individual adult and would then help Role model that for the kids to realize that everyone learns and it's a lifelong journey of learning It's not it doesn't stop just because you reach high school.

just because you've reached [: 00:12:00

CheeTung Leong: And some might see that negatively. Why did you say yes to it?

Chris Hoffman: In our conversation we had before, I said, how do you become a Super 10? You're not smart enough to say no somewhere along the line. That's my smart aleck response to it. But the reality is at every level my experience in high school, so I think I attended six different elementary schools between kindergarten and seventh grade and some of it was family moving, divorce, and so I was back and forth a lot.

timately went into education.[: 00:13:00

Chris Hoffman: And then, as I entered the roles of education as a teacher I was having my eyes up, and I'm looking and paying attention to folks around me, and I knew I was having an impact on the kids that were in my class every day, and the kids that I coached on the football field, and the kids that were in myadvisory group, and we built those together, and I knew I had impact on those kids.

Chris Hoffman: But I saw people at the next level of the organization and vice principal, principal roles, and I watched and I said, you know what, these people are having an impact as well, and they're doing it on a larger scale. And so there was an interest of mine. Could you make an impact at that next level?

Chris Hoffman: And I saw people doing that and I was given opportunities to. Practice my leadership and to have some of those impacts and, in a vice principal role and ultimately a principal two principal positions over the years and at each level. I always paid attention to the next level is, can you make a difference for kids and adults?

th [: 00:14:00

Chris Hoffman: And I was like thanks, but no thanks. I'm only in my fourth year here. we got our goals lined up. We got work to do. But they said let me call you after we do the community search and the staff feedback piece. And they came back and they wanted someone who knew the district who could build relationships, who could reestablish long held trust that had been broken through the great recession.

Chris Hoffman: And I was like, that's me. And I applied for the job. I had to tell my other board that I was Can I interview for the job? And they're like I don't want you to interview because you're going to get the job. But if you don't interview, we'd be disappointed because it's your opportunity to go home and get back.

mpact. And so it gave me the [: 00:15:00

CheeTung Leong: Yeah, I that's a great journey. And I particularly like how you, at every level of that you've been at, you're always looking ahead. You're always looking ahead to what do I need to learn to take on that next job? And I think that clearly is coming through in your approach to professional development of the adults within district, because you're constantly stretching them just like how you've been stretching yourself. When you think about it that way I want to reverse that a little bit and say now that you're, what, you're 14 years plus as a superintendent, when you look back to that first role as a vice principal, what were some of the things that you can remember that you had to change about what you were doing from like an individual educator to somebody who now had to lead other educators.

eTung Leong: Do you remember [: 00:16:00

Chris Hoffman: Now, one of the first things I joke about is that one of the biggest differences about being a vice principal versus being a teacher is the restroom was 14 steps away from my office and I could go whenever I wanted. I didn't have to wait for a bell to be in between classes. But One of the biggest learnings for me when I became a vice principal was teaching can be pretty isolated.

Chris Hoffman: You're in your room and you're doing your work and maybe you have a colleague or two that you're bouncing some ideas off of. I used to joke, my room is and classroom is Hoffman land and we're going to study democracy, but we're not going to practice it. This is my little world.

Chris Hoffman: And one of the best things about becoming a vice principal is I got to get into dozens of other teachers classrooms. And to see there were many different ways to be a good teacher.

ent in people started really [: 00:17:00

Chris Hoffman: And you go to other rooms and some are quieter and some are noisier. Just as effective and oftentimes way more effective than I ever was. And so you get to learn that there's more than one way to do it. There's some core beliefs and some core practices that I think are really critical to be for quality instruction.

Chris Hoffman: I think we know what those things are. There is the art of teaching as well. And seeing that balance of getting out of my own world and seeing other people do this really important work. So I wasn't just watching the leaders and how they led, but I was also watching the other folks across the school and how they were doing their work, whether it was teaching campus supervisors the front office staff the folks in the lunchroom.

nt with the journeys of many [: 00:18:00

CheeTung Leong: Or was this something that you took upon yourself to say, I'm curious about how all these other teachers are doing their job. I'm going to go sit in on their classes.

ey could improve and provide [: 00:19:00

Chris Hoffman: So there was, there were certainly systems in place and Elk Grove Unified at that time. And we, there were systems for developing vice principals and their supervision, evaluation skills and those kinds of things. But there, there was my personal. Take on all of it. I joke, I give Mike Hanson credit for being a mentor of mine, but I say this to his face and he'll see this at some point is I learned as much what to do is what not to do from Mike because I couldn't be Mike and I couldn't, I didn't.

t leader today than I was as [: 00:20:00

Chris Hoffman: I've continued to develop over the years, just like I expect all of our teammates to do.

CheeTung Leong: So what you described is actually one of the hardest things to do as a leader. And I think we were chatting a little bit about that book, Leadership and Self Deception. And it's so easy. to fool ourselves as leaders. And yet you felt that even as an early leader, as a vice principal, you had that level of self awareness to know, this is the kind of leader I can be, this is the kind of leader I can't.

CheeTung Leong: And what got you to that level of self awareness at that early stage in your leadership journey?

ption work, I didn't come in [: 00:21:00

Chris Hoffman: And that was really, the first work I've ever engaged with that had a direct impact on me as a father, husband, and as a leader. And I wish I would have known Those concepts, and we all know them, but to actually have it in a framework that was, usable way earlier in my career, because I could have been a better leader even sooner because it was really about me and what I bring to the situation and seeing the hopes, dreams, and challenges of the people I work with on a daily basis and aligning my work,

Chris Hoffman: I have these goals I need to get taken care of. And we've all been run over by somebody who's trying to get their goals done. and I feel like I've been used to help somebody get someplace, or I was irrelevant to them while they were trying to get there. But in this idea of the outward mindset work, it really is being alive to the humanity of the other people that you engage with on a daily basis while still getting your work done.

y that the hopes, dreams and [: 00:22:00

Chris Hoffman: And one of the, I think the strengths of leaders is being able to admit when you make a mistake and own it and not not have it land on somebody else's plate. And so I've tried to do that over the years as well.

CheeTung Leong: Yeah I think that's a really interesting point of view. As you progress through leadership, you make all these, we're all humans and we make all these mistakes, but we learn from them as leaders. And I think one of the things that personally, I feel like we were grateful to the people that have continued to follow us through these years.

CheeTung Leong: These mistakes and as you get better and better you're able to serve them better and better. what is one thing that you can maybe point to that you do differently today than you did way back when you first became a leader?

Chris Hoffman: What can I do [: 00:23:00

Chris Hoffman: And so that concept at the beginning of the school year, I remind when I was a principal, I remind leaders that, and all staff when I do the back to school stuff is when I was a principal, people would tell me two stories. They tell me the story of somebody who believed in them and they're now doing something they never thought they would do because this person believed in them.

ilities and it's easy to get [: 00:24:00

Chris Hoffman: And I think that's how I view people and the value. I've always valued people, but with this framework. I have a better way of understanding it in my head and understanding that I do have impact and I do have influence and making sure that I'm cognizant of that on a regular basis is I think part of why I'm a different leader today than I was.

CheeTung Leong: Is there something that you're doing today helps you to get closer to that humanity of the people that, that person that's right in front of you, that you're leading that you've developed over the years and has become more effective? Is there something that you do, an approach or a mindset that you take?

of leadership broader than I [: 00:25:00

Chris Hoffman: we have seven different employee organizations, and each of those has leadership components to them. And then all the people that are part of their organizations are leaders in different ways as well. So we're very broad in our view of leadership. And we took this concept the outward mindset work, and I shared it with cabinet.

Chris Hoffman: we played around a little bit and dove in and then I shared it with the, leaders of each of our seven labor organizations that we shared with them. And they resonated with them as well. We ended up going to the board and saying, we need some seed money to do a wider range of training with folks.

built into all seven of the [: 00:26:00

Chris Hoffman: And we got about 3, 000 people trained of our 6, 500 folks pre pandemic. So part of the, I think what I brought to the organization was not holding this information to myself. But sharing it with others and developing a common vocabulary and a common understanding across leadership, across the district.

Chris Hoffman: So we all, see each other the hopes, dreams, and challenges of each other. And it's helped us get through some really challenging issues, including a worldwide pandemic. I think that investment, not just, in me. But the investment in all of our leaders really helped us work our way through that.

CheeTung Leong: Absolutely.

s that you work with and the [: 00:27:00

CheeTung Leong: And that's not an easy thing to do. What makes you think you know better about this than we do? How did you approach this? Was this even an issue for you when you had these conversations?

Chris Hoffman: I do. I shared my learning, so I said this. This was my experience with this work. I didn't say it was the answer. I just said, this is how it's resonated with me. And I'd like to share it with you. So I shared it. And we had people had, similar reactions to it.

Chris Hoffman: When I shared it with the partner and education group, the two leaders of each of the associations we read the book and we got back together one time. one of the folks raised her hand and she was a paraeducator, a leader of one of our unions and she looked over at one of the teacher leaders and said we worked together for several years, back in the day and the teacher goes I don't remember that.

ng rolled out and we went by [: 00:28:00

Chris Hoffman: Work around the book and the teacher wanted to start the meeting. She raised her hand. I'm like, Oh, this might go sideways. And she looked over at the paraeducator who had made the statement previously. And she goes, I spent some time the last few weeks. And I used to go from the parking lot.

Chris Hoffman: to my mailbox, to the copy machine, to my room in a triangle, and I really didn't pay attention about what was going on. And this last three weeks, I've looked around my campus, and it was a new campus, and it's grown up around me, and the trees are beautiful, and I saw people in this last three weeks that I hadn't seen before.

Chris Hoffman: And she literally looked at the other person and said and I apologize for not seeing you, and that'll never happen again. There was two leaders of two different unions. and some of our classified unions specifically, we had people that said, I've never thought of myself as a leader.

role differently. one of 'em [: 00:29:00

Chris Hoffman: So every time we had to work through something with her, she'd go, Hey, Chris, just a reminder, leadership's hard. I said, Yes, Jennifer, it's it's hard.

CheeTung Leong: Leadership is hard. Leadership is hard. Just in case anyone out there has forgotten.

Chris Hoffman: Sure.

CheeTung Leong: but I think one of the things that, we sometimes just assume that leaders have all the answers, that leaders know exactly what to do.

CheeTung Leong: But when you're in the hot seat it's really true. Like it's, you don't have all the answers you don't always have things roll your way. And that is something that I'm picking up as a common thread in your leadership where you have the systems, you have the processes, they're all in place.

ther human beings and you're [: 00:30:00

CheeTung Leong: No, I absolutely believe you can because I'm a different leader as a result of doing this work and person after person having these experiences now we all fall back, anyway, and we have tough days are tough moments. And we think about ourselves and think we're more of a so that's human nature.

h an idea that somebody else [: 00:31:00

Chris Hoffman: And so that, that's another component of it is I don't have to have all the answers. I come up with three or four good ideas a year. And then that's about all I'm good for. But I contribute and I help people and I'm a thought partner through things and then I try to model that for others as well.

Chris Hoffman: But you can certainly learn it. I believe that wholeheartedly.

CheeTung Leong: When you think about keeping yourself in check, it's one thing to have philosophy. It's one thing to have the approach. And listening to you, I don't think that's going to be a major problem, but how do you know when you're either you or others on your team are losing that touch with humanity?

CheeTung Leong: Is there some kind of. feedback mechanism that you put in place or that you're, yeah, there's some ways of seeing how things are panning out. Like, how do you, is there a systematic way that you use to keep track of this underlying humanity that you're leading with?

vel I'm very cognizant of my [: 00:32:00

Chris Hoffman: people being aware of their own personal red flags when they can sense that they're headed in that direction. And the other thing I think that is really effective systemically for us is we have a common vocabulary. So when we talk, when somebody is focused inward instead of seeing others as, and if we use the term in the box, so I'm in the box when I'm in the box, I'm closed off from the rest of the world.

Chris Hoffman: I'm closed off from the humanity of other people, and sometimes I'm in the box and I know I'm in the box and I'm in my recliner in my mind and I'm watching TV and I'm perfectly happy in my box, but I know being inward and that isn't helping This situation at all. It's not going to help things get better.

e humanity of those you work [: 00:33:00

Chris Hoffman: And they can, they have the ability to reflect. Those are my signals that I'm not seeing things the way I probably should see them.

CheeTung Leong: No, that's a really great advice actually. For all our listeners out there who are experienced leaders, I think that would resonate with this where you have that self management mechanism. That you have to be aware of your own red flags at the same time, you're bringing your whole team along with you.

CheeTung Leong: Having that common language allows the team to come along with you in this leadership journey and you can lead together as a team rather than disparate individuals who might be very self aware, but aren't working together. And I think that common language that you mentioned really, I think it's something that really works well.

that you do to enable these [: 00:34:00

Chris Hoffman: Yeah, we're not as systemic about that as I would like to be, but we're headed in that direction. So we did a lot of this work pre pandemic and we were doing, we trained nearly 3, 000 people. it was going along really well, and then we put it aside and we had to get a whole bunch of other work done.

Chris Hoffman: We're now back into rolling, and part of the conversation is, you So it's not just when new people come into the organization, one of the things we made some changes to were the interview questions that we asked. So that as we're interviewing people coming in, do they have an outward mindset already?

Chris Hoffman: Are they open to that concept? And you asked questions in an interview piece about things that didn't go well, and are they reflective and owning their contribution to why something didn't go well, and were they part of the solution to make it go well in the future?

actually thinking about the [: 00:35:00

CheeTung Leong: Yeah, for sure. And I can't believe we're running up against time already. if I can summarize what I've learned from you so far. That self management, that focus on the humanity of the people that we're working with, the people that we're leading and investing in leaders, broadly defined across the organization and organizations that we sometimes partner with, those are all amazing takeaways for me.

CheeTung Leong: If you had One other piece of advice that you would give to a new superintendent or someone who's aspiring to be superintendent about how they can improve their leadership. What would you say to them?

en a lot more than you talk. [: 00:36:00

Chris Hoffman: So I think, especially new superintendents, I know you get in the role and you want to be seen as competent and you want to be seen as a leader and that pressure is on you. But more than anything else, listening in that time. Way more than you talk. And again, for me personally as I'm thinking through things hearing other ideas and perspectives has always led me ultimately to a better solution than I originally thought of whatever that situation is.

han you talk. And being very [: 00:37:00

CheeTung Leong: Thank you so much for joining us on the show. Chris really appreciate you sharing your insight and your journey. And for all of you listening, I hope you've had a great episode. And for the show notes for this episode and the episodes that the other 200, 60 odd episodes that we've been publishing, head over to k12.

CheeTung Leong: engagerocket. net and you will find a whole bunch of them waiting for you This has been great. Thanks for joining us, Chris . It's been a pleasure having you on the show.

Chris Hoffman: Thank you very much,