Leadership Lessons from an Educational Turnaround

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But as we all know, the vast majority of transformation efforts fail. Why does that happen? Typically, those failures are due to one of two major factors. One, lack of executive commitment to the vision for the future, or two, lack of capability in the execution layer of leadership. If you want to simplify that, frontline leaders aren't skilled enough to help mobilize frontline employees, and that leads to failure of transformations.

of what that actually looks [: 00:01:00

This is a story of a performance engineer. And cultural turnaround. So who's going to be leading us through this journey and telling this story? We have jeffrey flag currently serving as the superintendent of the fond du lac school district where he's completing his third year as superintendent He most recently served as the principal of South Milwaukee High School in the South Milwaukee School District with prior administrative experience as the principal of Glen Hills Middle School in the Glendale River Hills School District and as the principal of Central High School in the School District of La Crosse.

Additionally, Dr. Flegg was an associate principal at La Crosse Central High School, at Onalaska High School, and he has spent 27 of his 30 years in education as an administrator. Over the last three years, the Fond du Lac School District devoted extensive time and energy to improvements resulting in better student outcomes and a culture of trust and accountability.

s Darden School of Business, [: 00:02:00

Jeff, welcome to the show.

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[00:02:19] Dr. Jim: Yeah, I'm I'm pretty pumped to draw go on this conversation with you and my particular area of interest especially being somebody that's been mostly focused on private sector. Turnarounds is. Sharing a turnaround story or learning about how a turnaround can be executed in the public and specifically the K through 12 sector.

So it's going to be a pretty good conversation. But before we dive in, I think it's important for you to fill in some blanks with the audience. Tell us a little bit about your career trajectory and also how some of that career experience shaped your perspectives as you tackled this new district over the last three years.

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It's the 15th largest district in the state of Wisconsin. So it was a pretty big jump for me, and I had a board of education that hired me at the time that believed that I could I had a history of really impacting student outcomes, and that is what they wanted at the time, and it's still what they want, and I took a big leap, and and it's been really an awesome journey, a lot of ups.

Few downs here and there. And as when you get into executive leadership in school districts you're, you are actively trying to change a system that actively resist change in at the deepest level. One of the, you have to realize that may include yourself as the. As a CEO that you have to change to along with the with the district.

And that was really [: 00:04:00

[00:04:08] Dr. Jim: So we'll dive into that in a little bit more detail a little later on in the story, but there's something that you mentioned that caught my attention, and that was your point about how you went from being a principal for a while. To leading one of the biggest districts in the state that normally doesn't happen because normally what is you see that progression going from Principal to assistant superintendent to superintendent of a smaller district and then you eventually land at one of the bigger districts So one of the things that i'm curious about is from a career development perspective I'd like you to share with the audience What factors did you leverage or emphasize to make the case that you should immediately be in this larger district because I'm sure there are people who are listening to this conversation thinking, Hey, that could be me.

ull that off if I don't have [: 00:05:00

[00:05:03] Jeff Fleig: I think I think it's twofold. Number one I think getting a doctorate from the university of Wisconsin, Madison, it's one of the top educational leadership institutions in the country. It's usually ranked one or two. Really helped prepare me. To lead in a large district. That was a focus of our program.

We got this educational background. I have that. I believe help repair me. But I think on the other side is my willingness to learn. And I've been a learner my whole career. And I think when you lean in and lean into being uncomfortable, which I was willing to do and you. I also shared with the board in the interview, there's going to be times where I don't know what to do and I'm going to have to lean on my team as well as the board on next steps.

I think part of it is not being afraid to ask questions when you're unsure where to turn. And I think part of that is the humility that comes in leadership, that it's okay not to know something, but you have to have those people around you to ask. And I think and what the board saw me, I think was a real student learning is just a non negotiable of mine.

, and I wasn't wavering from [: 00:06:00

I don't think I can work. Just about anywhere. It was a fit for the board and it still is a fit for the board. And that's, you're only as good in the superintendent chair as the board supports you and the board's been super supportive of the work we've been doing. And I think that was really my non negotiable with student learning.

I was very candid with the board during the interview process on that. And and I've demonstrated that in my career.

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So if other people are looking at making a similar sort of career trajectory move, move. You need to define your North star first so that you can easily communicate it to people that [00:07:00] are in your orbit. The other thing that I think is really important, and this is probably something that's important for early stage leaders is that.

You mentioned that it's okay to admit that you don't know something, and actually the best leaders take that position almost reflexively and put their SMEs in position to succeed because they give, they push that leadership down. It's it creates vulnerability, it creates trust, and The outcome of that is that you have teams that end up being a lot more capable because you're sharing the workload in an open and honest sort of way.

So I think that's really important. I want to switch gears a little bit and get a little bit more perspective into the landscape of the district that you walked into. Paint us a picture of what you were walking into.

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We had two other elementary schools that failed to meet expectations. And there was no plan when I came in to address this. And this is a community that's very proud of their schools. And there's really no excuse why we don't have all of our schools meeting expectations. So I addressed that. And then I think that's the, that's the hard data part of it.

But then as I got into it, there, it was a hardened status quo environment that was very adult centric and had never had a leader that just came in and just called it out. And I don't know if I would have did it the way I did it as I look back on it, but it, but at the end of the day is that it was a shock to the system.

And now we're seeing the fruits of our labor. And I think that was the hard thing was you have, yeah, we have low performance academically, which is our business, teaching, learning, and culturally. And we we. We called it out. I, I named it at our back to school welcome my second year. And just said, look, folks, this is what we're going to do.

We're going to [: 00:09:00

That is a hard thing to say in front of your employees. Here's what happened as a result of that, Jim, is that I have employees now thanking me. Never go a day without someone saying, thank you for dealing with this. Thank you for making this organization more professional for addressing this.

And I think it was the teach and learning and the culture. They have to be ands. And I'd say when I came in, Jim, one of the pivots, and I had to make a number of pivots, was I thought it was all teaching, learning, and culture came second. It's not the case, they are ands, they are not ors, or one is not first and one is second, they are one and one.

And I think that's been the, that was the biggest learning curve I had without sitting in that district, in that middle management of district office, I probably would have learned that. And that was a pivot I had to make.

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[00:10:13] Jeff Fleig: I, as I've had a chance to reflect, as I end my third year, I would not have probably publicly named it as as I did. I would have focused more on the executive culture at the executive leadership level and then work our way down, which is what we did at the same time, but I think when you, I maybe came on a little strong with naming it, but at the time it's what needed to happen, but I think if I were to go in to another position down the road as a superintendent.

I wouldn't publicly name it. I'd work on our work on the top first on the exact level from a leadership standpoint to make sure we're holding each other accountable, developing a high trust environment, work that down through middle management, the principles and whatnot, then work it into staff.

f tremendous for me. Or just [: 00:11:00

[00:11:04] Dr. Jim: Now, that's a really good point, and it actually ties back to something that I say all the time. Attitude reflects leadership. So if you're dealing with a cultural issue within your organization, if you're dealing with performance issues within your organization, before looking at triaging what might be happening on the ground, you need to look at your peer group, and you need to look at your leadership group.

If you are a leader within that organization and say, and ask yourself, what's broken here that needs fixing, that Makes it acceptable for people downstream to act the way that they're acting because it doesn't happen out of the blue people are taking cues from what they see and observe above and around them.

mation efforts fail, give us [: 00:12:00

[00:12:08] Jeff Fleig: I'll share this with you as as I sit as super in the role of superintendent, I need to be involved in the change, believe in the change and message the change. And I think the. Biggest mistake I believe executive leaders make is they are not a part of the change, they just expect the change. And we don't look in the mirror.

And I had to look in the mirror many times and be vulnerable with staff, be vulnerable with my staff to say, look, I don't know if I'm getting this right or not, give me some feedback. So I think part of it is we, one of the things we run from is accountability. And I think accountability is good.

It's very good for us and I don't run from it. And I think the important thing is you're saying that's when you look at it from executive leadership level, we need to be a part of the change, not expect the change. It's both. And so number one and number two, we created an outstanding plan for transformation on, on, on the teaching learning side.

And what we did is [: 00:13:00

And I think that is what has really led to some quick change.

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You're probably operating in an environment that has very low trust. So how did you bridge or overcome that challenge?

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What that did for me as somebody new and at the executive level is we were out talking to teachers, About what, what's going on in their classroom, got us a chance to meet him, build relationships with him. So that was step number one. But the real key to this, what really turned it was last summer when, we talked to, you talked to start, our partnership with initiative [00:15:00] one is that we took that leadership development that our executive leadership team and principals engaged in and brought it to 53 teachers.

Last summer and part of that process is, I didn't know this was going to happen is I had to take feedback from the group of 53 and it was some candid feedback and one of the things they shared with me as I had to be more vulnerable, I had to be more human to, and that's hard to hear. And I also and they wanted to support, they really want to be a part of the work and we need to, And I need to lean in at the end of my second year and say, look, we're gonna, we're gonna embrace this work with our thoughtful leaders.

That's what we call them and really give them the tools to lead at the grassroots level. They're making the highest impact in the organization. Our teachers are we in. And one of the things I think as I look at a pivot is I would have included them at the start in some of our leadership development with our administrators in in, in hindsight, because when they're learning the same leadership transformation process that we're going through together, I think that would be something I would do over because that's been transformational for our teachers.

They have I, [: 00:16:00

It's also building the vertical accountability from the teachers up to the superintendent, superintendent on down to teachers, and it's really opened up lines of communication. And I think so often I've been guilty of doing change on to people. This is now we're at the pivot was we're going to do change with people.

And I think that is what really resonated in our employee engagement scores from this past year is that we had a huge jump where we ask a question on. What percentage of you strongly agree or agree that you have in, that have input on, on, on decisions that impact your job, we were under 50 percent a year ago, now we're at like 64, 62.

So that was a big shift for us. That we are, and it's still something that we have to do. The people closest to the problems are the ones that can solve them. And we have to learn, and we have to learn to just continue to it, to include them in the decision making.

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And in a lot of cases, especially in the K through 12 space that I've heard, when you talk about leadership development or coaching, it's focused on the instructional delivery side versus what I would consider true leadership development. So what I'd like you to do is map out what areas of leadership development you focused on and why you selected those items as an area of focus

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Of what we do to get ourselves to believe in ourselves. So it really [00:18:00] addressed the confidence part and also understand that, Hey we can't make a two person problem, a five person problem. That's the definition of drama. And we talked at length about delivering the mail to the correct address in a kind, direct, respectful manner.

And that's part of the initiative one framework. And transformational for us. That's okay to give feedback to our colleagues. Hey, I just want you to know this. I, I wasn't very comfortable with. How you approach this problem or what you said in this meeting. And here's why. And one of the things that we told the teacher leaders is look, you are responsible for how the information is delivered, meaning you need to do it in a kind, direct, respectful manner.

You are not responsible for how it is received. And that was like a whole new, like they just felt relieved that, they could do this and that they could have the accountability and they do it with me. I've had some conversations this year with teachers and it's been in, in what it does, it makes a stronger relationship if you're willing to take the feedback and I believe as a leader, you have to take the feedback you, you have to, and it's information, some of it's good.

Some of it may be right. [: 00:19:00

So if i'm going to make a big change here I got to make sure those 53 thoughtful leaders are involved in that change Or some of them are so that they can have an impact in the organization But if I don't include them and don't get their feedback, they can derail a change So I think that's where the switch had to be is that leadership today is more is about collaboration.

I look about, and then about just directing. And I think that is what has been a pivot I've had to make over the last couple years as leading an organization with 850 employees and 580 teachers.

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And that's a tricky concept for people to wrap their heads around because people often confuse kindness with niceness. And I think it would be helpful for you to point out the difference or map out the difference so that the audience has a clearer idea of what a kind message looks like compared to what a nice message looks like, because that can overlap if you're not.

Defining it properly.

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And I believe in you, but I really think it's important for you to know that, hey, the way you did the deliver that lesson did not meet a majority of the learners. So the kind way is that this is information that I believe I want that you would want to know so you can become better.

We talk a [: 00:21:00

No, that, it was just, you know what I mean? We have to get to the point and deliver the last 5%. When you have that information, so you can grow from it and become better. And I think in education, historically, we aren't very good at that.

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Tell us a little bit more about How that actually showed up and what that actually met from a transformation perspective

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I talk a lot about each and every student, not about all. I talk about each and every, because all doesn't include kids who are, who have been traditionally marginalized by the system. And each and every does mean each and every. And I think we had to change that, that, hey, we are going to change outcomes for each and every student.

No excuses. And it's not okay to have students who are not doing well. We cannot ignore them. We cannot avoid them. And I think there were just a number of, I believe, systemic problems that, that, that needed to be addressed in terms of how we'd worked with students. And I'll give an example of one that I, Recently that we work through this year is we had a self contained classroom for students with behavior challenges, and they've been in a in a single classrooms, some of them since kindergarten.

smart and they got to be in [: 00:23:00

And I just said, we have to get rid of it. And I said, I want them in regular education classrooms. And here we sit five months later and they're thriving and they're learning. And I think that, that was built strictly out of adult comfort and I'd say with the best of intentions at the time, but it was something that was built, not for the best needs, not in the best interest of the students need to be included in the classroom, in the regular education classroom with their peers.

I'll never forget a student tell me, they said, Dr. Flagg, this is the first time I have eaten lunch with my classmates. I've always eaten it in the classroom. And that's from a seventh grade student. Think about that. So I think those are the kind of of systemic interruptions that we had to address to really make sure each and every student is valued.

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[00:24:19] Jeff Fleig: In my career, what I have found is in the education sector is talk with the students. And that's what I did. And I've done that. I, and I'll never forget about 10 years ago in a different principal position, I had an outside I had a professor from the local university where I was at coming, interviewed students about their experience at my high school.

And in the student voice is really powerful. And what I learned from there is I had to make some changes. There were some things I was not seeing as a principal. And once you, once the truth is uncovered. You have to deal with it. And I think the hard thing in school leadership, what we all wrestle with is our, how much are we willing to be complicit in a system that continues to marginalize students and reproduce inequality?

That is the [: 00:25:00

[00:25:16] Dr. Jim: Your point about listening to kids is is really a central point in figuring that out. If if you have questions about something, or if you don't know something you need to ask, and you need to ask the right people. That's a lesson that carries to any industry.

You mentioned earlier on in the conversation that you wanted to, one of the things that you did more recently was get your teachers involved in the leadership development track. Why did you decide to do that?

And what was the impact that you're looking to drive by doing that?

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We had a lot [00:26:00] of administrative turnover on the exec leadership team right now. I have one employee, I have one out of, I think, 10 that are still with me. And so we had a lot of turnover, but still were able to advance change in the midst of all this change. I knew we had to do something and I had to get the people at the ground level involved.

So the, one of the things that we, with that we've taken that as a step further. We, we did this teacher development part of leadership last summer. Here's one thing I didn't talk about, earlier. The countless number of emails I received thanking me for it.

And I didn't acknowledge that. And I, it wasn't me, we did it as we, we did it as a group. And. Giving them the freedom to lead. And then what I did, I took it one step further. We selected 15 teacher leaders to go through the full transformation process this past year that the exec leadership team went through.

And here's what happened, Jim, people, all 15 have told me this has changed their life. Now that's the impact. In terms of their career and their personal life. And I think when you, and as a leader, you have to continually work on both, you have to work on both. And I think that was very rewarding.

And I think my, my focus [: 00:27:00

And we're real excited about that, and it's something that has been to hear, and I'll just show you that the 15 people that went through, 12 were female leaders, and they're going to advance this organization pretty fast if they want to. And I got to tell you it, that has been super exciting to watch.

And just to see the growth in their confidence and in their perspective that now guess what I can lead and I can lead at a high level.

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It sounds like you're building your leadership pipeline by investing in your educators, and that's going to be the next generation of leaders that come through the district. So that makes sense. What are the anticipated impacts that you envision for the short run and mid run, [00:28:00] and especially when it comes to the type of work that you and your building leaders are doing, how do you see this playing out when when this leadership development at the educator tier starts to mature?

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Minimum, and we talk a lot about that. And I think also the, it, what has been really transformation is they get a chance to see exec leadership interact at a different, in, in a different way with them in terms of being vulnerable, sharing, talking about the challenges I encounter as a superintendent, principals encounter as principles and vulnerability right now in leadership.

nk that has been the impact. [: 00:29:00

When they have teachers who can lead at a high level, in some cases that they might be just as high, have it regraded. Great as impact as a principal, if not more, in terms of the district mission and vision of changing outcomes for kids.

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So that would be probably one of the other things that I would anticipate as this starts to mature is that you're no longer, firefighting As a building leader or a assistant superintendent or whatever you're doing much more strategic work that drives impact versus just moving the needle incrementally.

're the, what you're working [: 00:30:00

What are your key things that you would say people need to be focused on?

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Number two, you have to be willing to be held accountable for your, for your leadership. And that is easier said than done. And with especially with your thoughtful leaders and your people that are in your folks that are going through it They got to be able to give you feedback got to be able to take it And that's something i've modeled with people and who talk with me one on one, you know I'll take the feedback.

w thirdly is you're gonna in [: 00:31:00

And as well as whether it, and I think And also not be afraid as you're facing that resistance, there are times where you got to make small pivots within that resistance, but mostly you don't, but you just have to work on the messaging and make sure that you are being responsive to the concerns.

And I think that is the other thing is I've learned is there's going to be a resistance and you got to hang in there and you got to work through it and also acknowledge it.

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[00:31:41] Jeff Fleig: They can get ahold of me. I, my email is on the Fond du Lac school district website. Be more than willing to help any school district leader out there or anybody else who would wanna engage in this process.

But it's and we're not done yet, Jim. We're excited. We're excited for next year and the results we're gonna have. So we're gonna continue to plug away here and hopefully make an impact for our kids.

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Is it designed with the intent of maintaining the status quo? That's the starting point for your question. The next step in executing this transformation successfully needs to be focused on understanding who the system. Impacts the most and what they want to see changed. So in this instance, we're talking about the impact on students.

l to the biggest change that [: 00:33:00

And the last element of this is that this can't be done at the executive tier alone. You need to be able to push this through the rest of the organization and have it embedded at every level of the organization. So if you're looking at executing a successful transformation that solves both performance issues and cultural issues, This is the framework that stood out to me that makes the most sense in terms of what you would want to execute For those of you who have been listening to this conversation.

We appreciate you hanging out. If you like the discussion make sure you leave us a review on your favorite podcast player If you haven't already done so make sure you join our community. You can find that at www. engagerocket. co slash HR Impact, and then tune in next time where we'll have another great leader hanging out with us and sharing with us the game changing insights that help them build a high performing team.