Managing Up: How Leaders Can Advocate for the Frontline and Bridge the Gap with the Executive Suite

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If we agree that this theory is largely true, what implications does that short term thinking hold for an organization's people strategy? How do you lead with generosity and empathy when many corporate cultures don't walk the talk when it comes to their people strategy and too much of an emphasis on short term results., these are the questions that we're going to tackle today in our conversation. And it's a good thing that we have Federico Damarine. Here to help us with the discussion. So let me give you a little bit background on his story. So he's currently the chief people officer at group M.

throughout his career, such [: 00:01:00

Federico, excited to have you on the show.

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[00:01:21] Dr. Jim: Really looking forward to this conversation. And I think you're going to bring a lot to the table in terms of your particular perspective. I think before we dive into the conversation, I know I covered some of the.

Backstory of your career. But what I'd like you to do is take a few minutes to walk us through. Some of the things that you feel are relevant for the listeners to know about you, that's going to inform the discussion that we're going to have.

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[00:02:00] Basically I went through local, sub regional, and global roles trying to see the whole landscape of the people function. So going through the different practices as well as different scopes, different industries, because I've always been curious in terms to see how things work. In companies that are, publicly traded companies, privately held companies, more entrepreneurial.

So I see the people function as a great place to see how companies operate and that has been my journey who's taken me through living in different countries and seeing many different cultures.

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[00:02:55] Federico Demarin: When you see the world and the way things work out in different industries, [00:03:00] different companies, different countries, one thing you clearly understand is there are very few black and whites. You need to, you always need to question when someone says, this is the way to do this.

This is the way to do that. So I think when you have that questioning, which comes also with curiosity, authentic curiosity to say, okay, Let's see let's see how this could work differently. You start appreciating the fun and the value of working on a strategy.

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[00:03:40] Federico Demarin: I think basically when teaching people is one of the things I've done in my career to help me gain perspective when you have to teach other people, you reflect harder on what you're saying, because obviously you may be talking about something like leadership development or performance management, but you understand not even the [00:04:00] most renowned guru in the world in history can say, you this is the way I say it.

The way I do it is the right way. And every other way is not. So as a teacher it, it humbles you. It makes you research. It makes you show different perspective of things. And. As you practice that with new students, and I've always asked them, and this is MBA students, I've always asked them, please, criticize, be selfish in a good way, saying whatever you're listening, whatever you're hearing from me or your peers is not the absolute truth.

So test it against your own reality and see what the difference are, because that's the best way to really understand something and then bring it. To your own realm and build a strategy around it.

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[00:04:58] Federico Demarin: So when it comes to [00:05:00] speaking to people in other functions or even in your own team, in HR or in the people function, you always put things in perspective. You always share things as an opinion. As alternatives, you ask many questions. So the coaching formation helps a lot. It's not. It helps you.

It teaches you to ask questions and to drive a conversation, but not to make statements about how things are or how they should be. So to me, that's also very important when you're bringing an idea to a team or bringing an idea to your business partners. You present it as this is an alternative.

You show where that idea is coming from. So research what kind of best practices behind it, but you don't say this is the way to do it, right? So that, that to me is my perspective. And it has worked very well in terms of getting people on board to support it, understanding that everything you do is a try, there's no absolute truth about those things.

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How. Should that impact their response and their processing of information when they're confronted with some challenge that their people are bringing to them? What's your advice in that sort of scenario?

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I think it's a great example. People you try to do that because you don't want anybody to think that you don't know what you're talking about. The smartest people I've met and I've worked with, they're always those are the ones that usually reflect on things. They [00:07:00] take their time.

They said, let me think about this. There's some information I need to consider. So you don't need to jump on something right away. If you're surprised by the topic, that's what you can do. If it's something that, it's coming, so like a meeting or discussion, definitely try to inform yourself first in whatever you're saying, even if it comes from wherever guru, wherever, consultant firm, always put it as this is information that can help us.

And the value that you're bringing is actually bringing insights that come from research and not necessarily from yourself. So you remove yourself from the equation of this is valuable or not. You're a vehicle, you're an expert that brings information into the conversation. And that will help you position yourself as an expert.

I think it's not about having the right answer because if you say this is the way I can guarantee you if there's 10 people you're gonna, you're gonna hear nine other ways and everyone feels that's the right way.

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So I think that's really well taken advice. One of the things that I'm curious about you've had quite a bit of time in the people leadership space. And I'm sure you've seen a lot of leadership gurus and HR gurus have their theories out there.

Having seen what you've seen, what sort of the HR or leadership myth that you just wish would go away?

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You provide a framework, you provide examples, you mentor people. You put ideas on the table, but you should not put it as this is the answer, because then what you're creating is clones, people that would repeat what you say, and then nobody will ever innovate if they do what you say, because in, in this field, as much as in any other innovation is a constant.

So you need people that can challenge what you're saying and say, I see this differently. I see this in this other way, or we could do it in this other way. That is better.

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And I totally agree with your point that the idea that the [00:10:00] leader has to have all the answers is old time thinking. So if we're building that innovation culture, how do you set up the environment so that people are comfortable? And challenging and questioning what is considered prevailing wisdom.

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So I think if you want to, generate an environment where people can challenge and innovate in a healthy way, you need to see this in people. So what are the behaviors? These people should show, we'll bring this kind of environment into a company. Of course you need to get things done, but not every role is like that.

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So I think recruitment is fundamental as a leader. to generate this space. And secondly, your own behaviors. So you recruit the people that, but if you behave as every time someone says something that doesn't go along with what you're saying, you start defending yourself or you start attacking other people.

That's not going to happen. It's important that your behaviors always shown show this openness to listen. This, how do you reward the people that contribute and how do you incorporate their feedback into your own conversation so other people may feel encouraged to do it.

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So when you look at that, how do you build that muscle within yourself as a leader? So you aren't cutting things off too quickly. You're resisting the urge to jump in too soon. What were some of the things that you did earlier in your career that set you up for success when it comes to that?

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That you're not the only source of development, the only source of innovation that it's [00:13:00] going to be there. So you need to open that space. One of the things that helped me a lot was to work on emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence, I think, is a critical skill because it helps you Control yourself first. And the, some of the urges that you feel when you're in a conversation, especially someone saying something that goes against your own opinion is, so how do I keep myself open?

How do I manage my urge to defend myself? Because it's human, right? It's your own ego saying you need to defend yourself. You're under attack, right? It's very primitive, but it works. So it's always at work. So you need to. Be aware of that. So how do you connect with your own body? How do you connect with your body temperature, how you're listening and how do you stop listening?

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So you're going to have safe spaces to practice this until you build the muscle and the skin to to manage these opinions that go against what you're saying. And the other thing I think is, there's a lot of materials about. Long term leadership versus short term leadership. And I think this is definitely one of the things that you need to always keep in mind when you're creating a culture of innovation, when you're accepting all these people's opinions, it's probably not short term because it's always faster to do whatever you want in the way you want it as a leader.

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[00:15:04] Dr. Jim: What you said about striking the balance between short term, midterm and long term, the leaders that do that well. Are the ones that really set themselves up for success when it comes to building a high performance team. I actually opened the conversation with that or with a version of that, my question to you is we know what in general, a lot of organizations look like they're obsessed with the short term and you as a people leader can get sucked into that short term thinking.

So when you think about creating that balance. That positions you for success. What were some of the things that you did that allowed you to, balance all of those things together as you were building your teams?

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And as a people leader, I see you have two. Critical areas of responsibility. One is to remind those leaders that there's a mid and a long term. So in terms of strategy, when it comes to people and the decisions they make focused on financials and short term, you need to remind them what are the consequences, what are the pieces that will move and how would they move if they focus on that short term.

Only road. So that's one thing. And you need to speak up, you need to find the place you need to find the time and the way to talk to your, to the CEO, to talk to your colleagues, to help them understand the consequences. Number two, you're going to have a people's strategy in place that involves many things to do.

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But very few actually question. Do we really need to postpone it? Or are these two things that can work in parallel? Is it really that you cannot do all these other things that are more people oriented, connected to our meat and long term strategy because we have this short term thing we need to achieve?

And it seems it's so black and white, financially driven. These other things, they're not going to have a space. And I think This is something as a people leader as an HR leader that you need to fight against

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Senior executives or the C suite seem so disconnected from like the actual [00:18:00] frontline impact of what's going on. That their messaging and their actions seem like they have no sort of consideration for what happens below them. So I guess when you're when you're thinking about your advice of, Hey, people, leaders need to speak up.

They need to make sure that they're being heard. They need to make sure that they're advocating for what the what the rank and file are experiencing. How do you pull that off? When executives might not even really be that concerned.

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It's not like the business leaders don't do that with their own teams. I've worked with many business leaders that are very close. And I think you need to have those individuals. In the [00:19:00] markets, in the different areas and different functions that have the trust, the confidence and the courage to bring those opinions to you in the people function or to you as a leader.

And sometimes in, as an HR leader, you need to have those spaces with those individuals on a one on one, they feel comfortable and safe to bring that feedback into the larger conversation. And if they're not able to, that you need to find a way. To make it happen because at the end it's, I think it's a critical responsibility for the leader in the HR function.

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So they're actually connecting the [00:20:00] dots to what's happening at the front line. What are some of the things that you would recommend that people leaders do on a consistent basis? So there isn't a disconnect between. The executive suite and the ground floor.

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And it's not about fighting. It's not about resources always. It's also about. Talking of strategic elements of the equation, not just the short term. If it's always about the short term will always prevail. So make sure that your meetings and the time you spend with your executive colleagues is also about those other things.

ve a very close relationship [: 00:21:00

So team building is definitely one. Second, how do you interject your one on ones with those executives? So you can have. They can have the trust to share some of the things and you need to hold that trust, you need to be loyal to what they're saying. You need to, they need to be able to know that they can have a private conversation about their feelings or their opinions.

And you're not just going to share it. Five minutes after in a coffee. It's something you need to build and you need to put it in your radar. How do I, if I have it, great. How am I using it? And if I don't have it, how can I build this trust credit with my colleagues so I can use it when I need it?

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How did you weave that into your one on one so it's a consistent area of focus?

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So if all the topics that are on that list are short term, then you're missing something. So that's one thing. Check that list, look at it, which one of these topics is actually strategic, so it's mid and long term, and how do I bring the mid and the long [00:23:00] term together? Into the conversation when I'm presenting these things, and this needs to be every interaction.

You cannot do it once a year, right? So when you have this one on ones, you need to make sure you present yourself as a strategic partner, not just a problem solver. Short term. If everything is about solving a problem, an issue that is in your hands right now, managers get used to it. And you may do it fantastically, but then when strategic elements comes up, you may not be in on the in the picture.

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[00:24:14] Federico Demarin: I think I would start with first, do you have a clearly simple strategy that you have communicated, or is it just the document? in some folder has it been implemented? Has it been discussed? Has it, do you have followers that strategy needs to be connected, obviously with the business, with the vision of a company, but also with your own purpose.

And I think as an individual, if you're a leader in the people function, you need to have that clear. If you haven't worked on that would be a great suggestion. Start defining. What is it? What's my purpose? What do I do? What I do? What? What drives my energy? My enthusiasm? Because when you talk about meat and long term, you need to have something bigger than just a goal that, you know, implementing a system or changing the process.

So to me, that's one thing. [: 00:25:00

Do you have research on your side? Do you have things you can show when you need it? You don't start with that, but you need to have it ready. You need to know what you're talking about. Then how do you present yourself? We talked about not. No, being the white size that knows everything.

And this is the way, and this is the wrong way you need to be able to back it up. Data and research is very important. And last, I would say your relationships. How do you relate to your organization? You talked about advocacy. How are you connected with the rest of the organization?

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So you can together innovate and discuss the important things, not just the short term firefighting.

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[00:26:13] Federico Demarin: I think the best way is LinkedIn. If you try to find me on LinkedIn, you'll find all the information that you need about my profile. You can write to me. I see messages from many different people. I've worked with and I've been in a teacher in universities. I tried to be active on LinkedIn, connecting with those individuals and helping whatever I have a chance.

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When they get promoted into those roles, want to create an organization in their own image. That's not the job. Your job is to develop other leaders that can actually replace you, so that you get to the next level. So it's really important for you to understand that there's not one, Pathway to the truth, and you need to create space so that everybody else is figuring out answers and delivering them in an innovating way.

The other thing that stands out about this conversation is that you have to build the discipline to speak up as a people leader in that way you are making sure that the. Executives and senior leaders of the organization are connecting what's actually happening at the front line. So from an HR perspective, in a lot of ways, you're the advocate for the front line of the organization and making sure that both sides of that equation, the executive suite.

that only happens if you're [: 00:28:00

If you're centering yourself in the middle of all the things that are happening, you're really going to create an environment where. You're just building a team of people that will only offer insights that they know that you'll agree with, and that's never really going to move the needle in terms of building that high performance team.

So really solid stuff, Federico. I appreciate you sharing all of that stuff. For those of you who have been listening to the conversation, if you like the discussion. Make sure you leave us a review. If you haven't already done so make sure you join the HR impact community. You can find that at www.

ts that they had that helped [: 00:29:00