Maximizing Hourly Employees' Contributions and Career Growth

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So a lot of leaders tend to just resign themselves to the status quo. But does it have to be that way? Do you just have to make do with having constant churn as cost of doing business in retail? Should we be even thinking about building high performance teams in this space? And if we dare to dream about it, how would we pull that off?

Those are just some of the questions that we're going to tackle today with our featured guest, Charles Smith. He's a fractional CPO of Morgan Scott group. Charles describes himself as a strategic HR executive and business partner known for being innovative.

describes himself as having [: 00:01:00

Charles, welcome to the show.

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[00:01:28] Dr. Jim: We haven't had a ton of folks with deep retail backgrounds on the show. So I think that's going to add a unique wrinkle to this conversation that we're going to have on building high performance teams, but before we dive into the discussion, I think it's important for you to share a little bit more detail about your background, your experience, the lens that you operate with, and that's going to help inform the listeners.

On the perspective that you bring to the conversation.

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And, I did that for about 10 years. And then I Pivoted and moved into H. R. And so I've done about 25 years in human resources, primarily in retail. However, since I've been consulting as Jim spoke to, I've been really focusing on interim and fractional roles so that I can bring my expertise to early and mid stage startup organizations.

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[00:02:52] Charles Smith: Yeah, I think it's so important for all HR people to spend time outside of our little HR bubble. It gives you a better understanding [00:03:00] of how the rest of the organization functions and the tools that we need to provide them so that they can do the best they can in their roles. If you're just in this homogeneous world of HR, you really don't have a point of view outside of human resources other than, interacting with your business partners.

So I think having a background in those areas. Gives you a better, rounded organizational experience and point of view.

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[00:03:46] Charles Smith: In my case I stumbled into HR quite by accident and spent my time early on in these other worlds, but I think someone who is already in their HR Function, I think it's most important to spend a lot of time listening and spend a [00:04:00] lot of time in, in the worlds that you're supporting. For example, in a retail environment stores are your bread and butter.

That's the focus of the organization. So you're spending a lot of time with the head of stores, with the leadership in the stores organization, traveling stores. Talking to people and listening to what they have to say. I think as we pivot more and more away from brick and mortar to more of an online presence, I think you're spending a lot of time with your tech people and your e comm people and understanding how that world works and what drives their business and an understanding their business.

You can understand how your HR function can better support them to drive business outcomes.

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But it takes more than just showing up and hanging out there. So what should be the intention when you're in the business? Who should you be [00:05:00] talking to? What should you be talking about? Give us a little rundown of what that agenda should be beyond just being present in the space.

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And because of their limited hours, they're really maybe not in a high traffic period. So maybe their earnings are impacted. So let's get the perspective of everyone in the organization and bring them along. And then that way you can craft strategies to impact the whole organization and again, drive the business forward.

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So your advice is, when you're in those business fronts. In those storefronts, you should be talking to the various people there and learning about what's going on. How can you leverage that information or what's the process for leveraging that information so that your directors and managers at the first and second lines are empowered to.

Show up in a way that positions their teams to be successful.

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Let's tell them about the situation that we're having and see, maybe he can actually do something about it.

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[00:07:32] Charles Smith: The stereotypical retail background is very hierarchical. They're taught not to really the stay in your lane mentality prevails to quite an extent. And I think that they're taught a certain way to deal with the us versus them. That is when they have a corporate visitor, there's a very specific protocol and they don't like to air their dirty laundry.

tation is going to take back [: 00:08:00

It doesn't matter if it's corporate versus a store or a sales organization versus the support organization or distribution or whatever, it doesn't matter, there's always, you're on the Island of you and everyone else is them and not that they're out to get you, but, There's risk, and I think to conquer that risk as a leader, it's important to be vulnerable, be human, be approachable let down your guard a little bit and engage with them.

And I think that's, speaks to what we talked about earlier is how do you engage with every level of the organization to understand what the needs are, and then based on that, you could triangulate that with all your other visits and maybe draw some hypothesis on what could help drive the organization forward and gain trust in the organization.

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The question becomes. How do you even start doing that? Because if that's an ingrained piece of the culture and you're the outsider coming in, trying to impact change, nobody's going to tell you anything that's going to be, actionable because everybody's everybody's in protection mode.

So what were the things that you did to overcome those obstacles and start the change process?

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[00:09:45] Dr. Jim: It's interesting that you mentioned lowering your guard. When I look at. The retail space is an outsider. There's a level of chaos that exists within that environment. You're dealing with generally hourly employees and there may be things that [00:10:00] pop up day in, day out that are different from the previous day that you had.

So there's a really difficult set of circumstances that allows you to be proactive. And when you say If you want to start breaking down the us versus them mentality you, as the outsider coming in has to lower the guard lower your guard first and share first. But where do you, where and how do you create the space to do that given the chaos that exists on the front lines within like a retail organization, if you're looking at the shop floor.

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We want to be able to be fulfilled in whatever it is we do. It doesn't matter what that thing is. It doesn't matter what the widget is. And I, so I think you, you have to make them feel fulfilled and bring them along. By talking to them [00:11:00] and being honestly open to what they say. They might tell you, it's a lot of crap coming from you and corporate and that's a problem.

But in my experience, people are a lot warmer and willing to open up than you might think. And why there, there might be some grievances in there. I think if you take away those grievances and you listen to them and maybe respond, to those grievances you can actually drive. Some engagement there. And once you start acting on them and people understand that you're actually listening and making improvements based on what they tell you, they that, that increases their openness and willingness to share. A great example is I was doing store visits once. And at the time our stores were primarily in AA plus malls.

And if you ever gone to a a high end shopping mall, it's expensive to park. And if you spend a day there, you could spend in a metropolitan area, 40 bucks to park. And we don't provide free parking to everyone who works in our stores. They have desegregated parking areas, oftentimes, especially during holiday, it's in an offsite parking structure.

t. I can't afford to pay for [: 00:12:00

Maybe our top salespeople, maybe president's club. There's different ways to look at that and come back with a way where you can make a meaningful impact in somebody's lives.

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[00:12:41] Charles Smith: I always ask, how could we do better? I always ask, as a leader, what can I do to remove roadblocks so that you can be more effective in your job? Super open ended. I kidding. It works for the stock guy. It works for a store manager. It works for a regional director. I think if you're open to trying to remove roadblocks they'll tell you what their grievances are and maybe [00:13:00] you can impact them.

Maybe you can't. Maybe it's an isolated incident. Maybe it's a global issue. That's up to you to suss out and figure out how you can impact it. And maybe there's nothing you can do about it. It's endemic to the organization or to the culture or whatever it is. But at the end of the day, if you prove that you're listening and you're doing something about it and you've circled back with that person, I've actually made calls back to the store to a stock person and said, Hey when we were out there, you might recall, we talked about X, Y, Z.

I looked into it and here's the, here's what I found on my end. And see if that answers their question. And people feel like you're being sincere and that you're credible and that you're playing on their team. And you're not just some head mucky muck from corporate. Who's there to get them into trouble, which is how they view you.

You're an adversary.

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Or is there a [00:14:00] different process that you use when you're tackling a particular store or particular retail establishment in terms of Driving these transformation initiatives.

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I'm removing the roadblocks. This is what I need from you. So that organizationally we can tackle and meet our goals and objectives. And I think people are a lot more willing to roll up their sleeves when they find out that they're, you're willing to work on their behalf so they can have a better life.

Both at work and at home and in, in exchange, they're going to go out of their way to make sure that they go above and beyond to make sure things happen. We discovered this when we put in paid parental leave, people came back all measurable.

eir stores had better sales. [: 00:15:00

[00:15:19] Dr. Jim: That makes a lot of sense. One of the things that I'm wondering about when I opened the show, I mentioned that a big challenge within the retail space is building.

A sense of purpose or mission within that space, especially when you're dealing with a lot of churn, a lot of hourly employees, people that are using potentially this particular role as a stepping stone into a role in a completely other industry. So when you look at the goal of building fulfillment and purpose within this space.

What are the steps that need to be taken to really lock that in at the store level and make it a reality?

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I had to move on to do this because of. Whatever my school load, whatever the case may be, I moved other conflicting obligations, but you know what, I want to tell you about this place I worked and how cool it was and why it was cool and why I have really fond memories of working there. I might've made minimum wage.

I might've, there might've been a lot of items stacked against them, but at the same time, they're being an advocate for the organization and selling us, whether it's online through, through a website where people are leaving reviews on the organization I think if you're engaging and interacting and you're genuine and sincere. People will engage and people will be your advocate and people will talk about you. I remember I had one candidate actually tell me because I would, as painful as it was for me, I would block out an hour or two every Friday and respond to as many comments online as I could on these employment websites and try to be genuine and sincere about it.

if I didn't know, I said, I [: 00:17:00

And they saw that I had replied to hundreds of these reviews and that I seemed legit and that we were trying to make things better. And that's the only reason they even considered being, become a part of this organization. So I think a little goes a long way.

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And that's fine. My question to you is this understanding that there's going to be a big percentage of the population that is using this as a stepping stone role. How do you maximize their time? In your operation so that you're getting the most out of them and at the same time, prepare them for that next bigger role that they might have on their radar.

helped you do both of those [: 00:18:00

[00:18:09] Charles Smith: I, you can't do it on your own. You can't be the HR guy who everyone loves. I think you have to ingrain that in the executive team. They need to walk the floor. They need to be around people. They need to emulate those behaviors. And in a retail store environment, you need your retail store leadership, your regional and district, leaders to actually.

Have that that those behaviors and demonstrate them on a regular basis. Sure. They have disciplinary issues and they have a business to drive and they have other concerns too, but how they go about it can be taught. And if the organization rose at the same time and comes at these challenges in a very similar way in terms of authenticity I think you're going to get that back from them.

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So what are some things that retail leaders can do when they're in the stores to really get a true line of sight of what's going on versus the dog and pony show that they might be shown when they come in for a visit.

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But maybe there are those that have a personal situation. Maybe they have a sick parent. Maybe they have a housing issue. [00:20:00] Maybe there's a dependency issue. How do you get to the bottom of that is you have these open and honest conversations that, Hey, when you sit down and say, Hey, I'm seeing this challenge in, in, in your work style and your output and your metrics what's going on, talk to me.

And if you've already built that rapport, people are willing to open up and, tell you what's going on. You may not be able to help their home life, but you can understand the why's and maybe not apply. A strict policy of, okay, three strikes and you're out or, whatever it is, every organization has been a little bit different in your policies and how you practice them for many different reasons.

But, I think there's a little bit of latitude in how you manage these situations and lead with a little bit of understanding and see, maybe there is something you can help. Maybe it's a scheduling thing. Maybe they have a sick relative that needs. Oh, did you know you're a full time associate?

lem for me. Let's figure out [: 00:21:00

Sometimes you can't do a thing about it. Maybe they need to work somewhere else. But at the end of the day, most people are willing to talk to you and tell you what their challenge is. And if you can meet them partway with it, that goes a long way in them dealing with their life in general. People have a life outside this nine to five thing or whatever your hours are.

And we need to be respectful of that.

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[00:21:53] Charles Smith: I don't think any of us is born with an inherent ability or understanding so we can lead effectively. [00:22:00] I think it's something that you learn. I think it's something that you're taught, and if you've never had a good leader, you might not learn it from your supervisor. So maybe the organization could step up and, do that HR thing and put you through some programs.

But at the end of the day, The longer you've been in leadership, you need to do that and lead. And you need to have that relationship with your people so that they're willing to raise their hand when they're in a tight spot and not wing it and maybe make a difficult or bad decision that may or may not be recoverable.

So if they're able to come to their supervisor and say, Hey, I'm having this going on, what do you think? How should I handle it? I think they can probably be a lot more effective in how they manage these hotspots. And I think the more they're on top of their business, the less firefighting that they're going to do.

But in order to do that, you have to get in front of whatever the problem is. Tough business, it's all a conflagration. You have scheduling challenges, you have staffing challenges, you have merchandise challenges, whether it's not arriving on time, or it's a bad collection or.

ou don't know what it is, or [: 00:23:00

[00:23:04] Dr. Jim: Great conversation, Charles. I think I think we've mapped out the landscape pretty well and talked about some of the unique things that exists within the retail space. Now, when we put all of this together we've talked a lot about the What in the why in this conversation, when we think about building a retail organization that operates with a sense of mission fulfillment and purpose, how do you do that?

If you're talking to that retail leader that's in the store, the district manager that, that oversees a number of stores and they want to build this type of culture that isn't operating in survival mode, what's the framework? What are the best practices that they need to have in mind? That they can put into place to allow for this to happen.

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Be honest. And for some, maybe give them a little bit more autonomy or stretch assignments. I've totally gone to people in certain organizations within the company and say, Hey, would you be interested in this? I could really use of that. How is that within, your toolkit?

Do you have the skills to do that? And would you be willing to let me see what I can make happen for you? What does that lead to? They could be stepping out of their comfort zone. They could be growing in, in their profession, professionally, they might grow their career, maybe not. It might be just a stretch assignment that they learn a little bit more about themselves, but it could lead to a career advancement.

I think you need to answer, honestly, you need to be transparent. You need to communicate. And to the extent you can tell the truth, you need to always, even when the answer is painful. We do screw up. You need to own it when you do and try to make it right. I think you need to measure iterate and try again and measure and repeat process.

I think when you do have successes, let's celebrate them.

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All of these sort of different variables. So how do you position a stretch assignment? As something of value to that particular employee that might not really be thinking of, Hey, there's an opportunity for me to expand my skills in this role that might set me up well. So how do you facilitate that conversation and position that as something of value?

[: 00:25:37

It's already occupied. There's a million different reasons. But you need to keep them engaged in the business. And how do you do that? You can give them a little bit of a stretch assignment to [00:26:00] where they can take on above and beyond what their quote unquote 9 to 5 responsibilities are and do a little extra.

And I think you need to be measured and careful about it because if you just say, Hey. Do a lot of extra work for no extra pay and you're not going to get a promotion out of it. That's going to end badly for everyone. So I think you need to be mindful of how you set these up, that there is a potential rainbow at the, pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for this individual or that they have a career pivot available to them.

And you do that through all the rest of the, the HR stuff that we set up, whether it's career mapping and career pathing. Performance management, which isn't just your once a year conversation of having an annual performance appraisal. Hopefully this is a discussion you're having with somebody throughout their time with you, where you're asking them where they are today, where they want to be when they grow up and how you can help them get there.

d they can be. Both in their [: 00:27:00

[00:27:02] Dr. Jim: The part that I really like about your answer there, Charles, is that you called out this trend of ghost promotions that exists within the world of work. It's where you get a bunch of responsibility and you don't get a move, you don't get a change in title and you don't get a change in comp. And that's that I'm glad that you called it out because that seems to be one of the ways that quote unquote stretch assignments are abused in the corporate world is that.

You get a whole bunch of work with no real tangible benefit either from a compensation or titling perspective. So I'm a big fan of that. So I think it has been a good conversation. I know that we're only scratching the surface of what you can do to impact change in these retail environments. If people want to continue the conversation, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

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[00:27:57] Dr. Jim: Great stuff, Charles. I appreciate you hanging out and [00:28:00] sharing your input with us. When I think about this conversation, one of the things that stands out to me was your point about sometimes leadership needs to take the lead and lower their guard first.

And the reason why that's important is that when you do that, it creates the space for those conversations that actually drive change and Within the organization. And especially when you're looking at retail environments that have high churn, have a lot of hourly staff, have a lot of people that are potentially there as a stepping stone role to something else that allows them to raise their hand and say, Hey, this is what I see in this role.

ense of mission, purpose and [: 00:29:00

For you to create that environment behind you. So I appreciate you sharing that with us. For those of you who have listened to this conversation, we appreciate you hanging out. If you liked the discussion, make sure you leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform . If you haven't already done so make sure you join the community.

You can find that at www. engagerocket. co slash HR impact. And then tune in next time where we'll have another leader hanging out with us and sharing. With us, the game changing insights that help them build a high performing team.